Arguments against the chain are usually made by people who are horrible with it.  Doesn't mean it is a valid point of argument.  This is Legions not Tribes, and even in Tribes the chaingun was used to *lovely lady* people down.  Any arguments based on Tribes are usually people living in their past glory days.  Move on, Tribes is over, nobody cares about it anymore.  Many good players no longer play the game due to lack of content and loss of interest. 

You could argue that the way people misuse the abbreviation OP in this game is OP.  I'm not totally against using the word, but the way people abuse that word in this forum leads people to greatly overreact to feature X in Legions. 


Just take a look at this search:  http://forum.instantaction.com/smf/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8NTEsOTksNTIsNzYsNTMsNzUsODksMjksMjEsMSwyOCw1NCwzMSwzMiwzMCw2MSw2Miw2Myw2NSw2Niw2Nyw3MSw2NCwxMiwxMDEsMTMsMTA1LDczLDc0LDk2LDExMyw4NSw4MiwyMiwyMywzOCw0NCwzOSw0MCw0Myw1NSw1NiwxMTIsNTcsODAsNzcsNzgsNzksMTAyLDg4LDgxLDg2LDMsNSw2LDY5LDcwLDgzLDg3LDQ3LDQ4LDExMSw0OSwxMTAsNTAsNCw3LDgsMTAzLDEwNCwzMywzNCwzNXwifHNob3dfY29tcGxldGV8J3x8InxzdWJqZWN0X29ubHl8J3x8Inxzb3J0fCd8cmVsZXZhbmNlfCJ8c29ydF9kaXJ8J3xkZXNjfCJ8c2VhcmNofCd8b3ZlcnBvd2VyZWQ=;start=0

And of course that's just a search for the word "overpowered."  I'm sure the word "OP" is even more trendy and would pop up plenty of results, but I don't know how/can't limit the search filter to just "OP" as words like "topic" come up.

The bottom line is, soon it ends up sounding like the whole of Legions is *danced* nine ways to Sunday despite the fact that among other achievements, we've run whole competitive leagues without major snags with the same game with so much "OP crap" that "ruins the game."

This really proves my point btw. You just stated that you HAVE to use the CG to compete. And why do we care about skill gaps, shouldn't someone good with a RL kill someone who's bad with a RL? Why should we add in something that allows someone to circumvent being bad?

Sketch, you misinterpreted what I said.

Here it is in a nutshell. You are not balancing for a computerized system, you're balancing for the point people are able to take a weapon. This is how it has been done in every beta I have been apart of. You put in a weapon and give it time to see how it affects game play.

It doesn't matter if this CG does less dps than the old one. People have simply been able to take it's mechanics and push it to a level where other weapons aren't needed in most situations. Any other weapon is unable to be pushed to this level which is why in the case of the CG, the RL/GL is the deterrent.

I also don't remember mentioning MA's ever. And to the people saying a MA will turn the tides of a duel, sure, maybe once or twice. If you go first to 10 and you're going for MA's, I'm willing to bet you will lose if the other is using CG 100% in the air. The CG will simply out damage targets in the air than RL/GL on the ground due to the opportunities given by the movements of the game. The shots are equally simple, there are just more opportunity for one than the other.

If you don't think the CG allows for a margin of error, you're crazy.

RL/GL is good for dueling, chasing, and you're right, it is situational, but there are simply less situations to use them in.

The CG shouldn't be as useful as RL/GL in dueling just as the RL/GL shouldn't be as useful in chasing of which it isn't.

I'm fine with it until this game gets looked at again and new items are added so we can really gauge what needs to be done, but the people that think there isn't a problem right now is surprising.

Yeah, maybe most of the threads made on this subject are people that are "bad" with it, but all the people that defend it are the people that are "good" with it. But you know what? That isn't the case here. Even better, it's way beside the point.

The "max skill level" was never predefined and therefore I had suggested what would logically offer the "max skill level" in terms aiming ability.  Some people have taken splash weapons and pushed that to a pretty high level with consistent MA's and deadly ground pounds.  I don't see why the chain is suddenly singled out just cause its inherent design.  Sure, it's easier to be proficient with chain than MA's, but that doesn't meant he chain is OP.


You mention that the chaingun is good at all situations including ground shots, its only fair that we make the comparison of splash weapons for MA's.  MA's do turn the tides of duels quite often, but thats irrelevant.  You're creating an uneven situation where someone would be frivolously fishing for MA's while the other player is proficient at using the CG.  There are too many assumptions being made that there isn't a point to the argument. 

I think the following simile will provide a good representation of the argument.  To expect someone not to use the CG on an opponent flying in the air is like having someone eat spaghetti with a spoon.  Sure, they can use the spoon, but the fork is a better utensil to use.  Does it really matter if the fork is used more often than the spoon?


Actually I was saying that it does and that theres nothing inherently wrong with that.


Why?  Why shouldn't all weapons be utilized?  Theres no reason for RL and GL to be the only weapons good for dueling and they are good for dueling.  They're good for both scenarios just as CG is good for both scenarios.  We could argue that rockets have even more uses than chain.  You can't rocket jump with a chaingun.  You can't bounce a flag with a chaingun.  You can't knock a player into a different position with chaingun.  Given those facts, shouldn't the rocket be considered OP?


I think the ideals of what people think the game should be are just different.  I can understand people's mentality that chaining is somehow cheap and it's needing for "balance."  However, Even if you tried to balance it, there are limitations on what you can do without hurting other aspects of the game.  We only have 4 weapons and any minor change to any weapon will affect multiple aspects of the game because ALL weapons are used for multiple situations.  I'm not saying that the game doesn't have problems, but the current CG we have is a pretty good balance given what is available.

It really baffles me to think that you actually think people get away with only using CG against other people of their skill level. They don't. And when they do they die. I could name one MAYBE two people in ALL of my time playing legions who I've EVER seen do that, and they we still only on par with the other people of their level. However I see people doing the same with rockets regularly.

Case and point, you're an idiot if you go up fighting someone at your level with only CG. IT DOESN'T WORK, and it's not practical at all. There are also many more people who do that with rockets than CG, wouldn't that mean by your logic rockets are easier to use and thus more OP than CG?

Really guys, CG ISN'T really OP compared to the rest of the weapons. And for every one person going around only using CG there are probably 5+ more doing the same with rockets (at the same basic skill level).

I'm really not getting my point through. Keep ignoring the rest of my posts(and all of their content). I won't bother anymore.

inherently if the cg is going to be good for chasing, it'll be good in a duel.  If you can hit someone mid-long range with it, how can it not be effective at close range?

Given the time you have to chain someone while chasing (relatively short), the cg has to do a fair amount of damage, and it must be dealt at range.  Get any closer and it'll get easier and easier to hit with it.  That is, until you get to within "dueling" range.  Once in this range, most people just don't move properly to be a harder target to hit.

Even if we were to reduce the damage a lot to nerf it, all it would do is make it take a second longer for a good cg'er to kill.

As I said before:  Relatively nothing has changed.  There simply aren't masses of players out there using cg only because it's so much better than the rest of the weapons.  It's only a few (who dont even exclusively use cg only) that are really good at it, and it's not because it's OP.

In my opinion the CG is just fine, thought it makes less damage because of the last update I found it more interesting and more attractive. I love the Chainsaw.
  Thought I don't chase using CG, I use it very often .I don't really like the GL loadouts. No offence.

Don't worry, we get your point.  I too have thought about methods of limiting the versatility of the chaingun.  Only solution I thought was practical was splitting the gun into two.  One being geared toward chasing and one geared toward short range air rape.

Ultimately, Van's post states the reality of the situation and to "balance" the gun to your liking would require more work than its currently worth.

Did anyone even read Mabeline's post? The new CG is not as good as the old one.

it's not that it'd be hard to change the weapon parameters (for example:  put "Y" damage in where "X" was... but mabe can correct me on that if it really is hard).  Its that, even if the parameters were changed, it wouldn't affect only those who are good at CG, it'd change for everyone.  Thus, the skill differential is still there.  (of course, this wouldn't even be considered for a while due to current development status)

You can argue:  Decreasing damage of CG will make people use RL more, thus "balancing" the CG to the RL.

And I'll say:  It wont increase use of the RL (substantially).  Slower movement is what would increase use of the RL, due to MA's becoming easier.

but then we have to get into the argument:  Do we want slow movement in FE:L?  ie:  tribes style movement, looooooooong predictable flight paths, no ability to "dodge", etc...  but this is for another thread in which we'd all come to the conclusion that no, we don't.

In short, don't bother comparing how CG was used in Tribes to how it's used in FE:L.

Yeah I commented on it, but I didn't quote it.

You can change the effectiveness independently from chasing and dueling. Say, reduce the rate of fire but increase the projectile speed. The increased projectile speed will help with chasing but not help at close range while the decreased RoF will reduce it at close range. This has supposedly already been tried but it's my suggestion.

And we're talking about balance. Yeah, most people aren't using the CG exclusively, but they're using it more than the others.

increasing projectile speed would only reduce the amount of lead needed, at close range, it's already pretty small.  Decreasing it more I think would make it easier at close range, just as it would make long range easier.

If you decrease the RoF it would increase the time it takes to kill at close range, but it would do the same at long range.  Since the long range shots are harder than the close range, you're not really helping chasers while subtracting from "duel" range effectiveness.


This cant be exclusively contributed to "weapon balance" issues...  We have a lot of younger generation gamers playing that are enticed by the high RoF weapons that they're used to from games such as CoD, Halo, etc...  This doesn't make them good at it, nor does it mean the CG is OP.  It's totally fine if people choose to use it more than the other weapons, they're only limiting their own abilities.  I don't see what that has to do with OP.

A sign of a weapon being OP would be a large amount of people using it with great effectiveness.  Can anyone truthfully say this with the current CG?

I hate to be an annoying *butter ball* but isn't everything going to be changed with the update? Why should we bicker about something that may be changed? To me it dosent make sense,  especially when the vast majority of you are ignoring the previous posts.